Here's LOFF56:
Whoa... well hold on a second here, Pete. I'm gonna' take you back to our previous back and forth about relativity. You said once in a post that just because long ago the best evidence we had told us the Sun revolved around the Earth, which was believed by close to 100% of the world, it didn't mean that it was True (with a Capital T). What about your own argument here? You said "...the Church does in fact attempt to change those teachings..." Yes, exactly... and by definition it doesn't make THEIR teachings True. My point is is that TRUE does exist somewhere. That's what I'm asking. Is that real Truth the institution of Christianity, or is the fake truth the institution of Christianity?
I'm not disagreeing with you at all on your assessment of the Church's heinous history, or present, for that matter. I'm just saying that that history is the fault of humans. I think you really need to draw a direct line between Jesus's actual teachings and the problematic Christian history in order for you make an argument that Christianity as a whole is worthless. Can you draw that line?
Here's the thing... you're probably right that at this point we should just throw that baby out with the bathwater. But I think it might be irresponsible for us to not put the blame on anything other than humanity for that action. We always destroy good things and blame it on something else other than ourselves, but what would we learn if we did that again? I don't think it's fair to blame the demise of Christianity on the TRUE beliefs, morals, teachings of Jesus. Our distortion of those on the other hand, yes, yes, yes!!
Here's PL:
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, L56, or maybe you misunderstood what I was saying? I mean, I think we are mostly agreeing with each other in an argumentative format! Perhaps with one exception - that I don't consider "humanity" to be monolithic. We are all human, and all one, yes, but if you're not thinking dualistically, then you can also accept that we are definitely not, as I've said many times before on this blog, all the same. Only a certain type of human being would become part of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, so I do connect those people with their institution, and as such throw that baby out with that dirty bath water.
And as for Christianity, by which I mean, and presume you mean, the teachings of Jesus? I would simply ask: What has Christianity got to do with the Catholic Church?!
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"What has Christianity got to do with the Catholic Church?!"
Nothing. Which is exactly my point to both of you.
Through your whole debate I've perceived Pete as seeing Christianity getting lumped with the Church's failures and I see Rick seeing the failing Church being held up by what's good about Christianity.
It's like you're looking at the same jigsaw puzzle from different sides of the table arguing that it's a different picture. The glass isn't half full or half empty, it just contains 50% water and 50% air. I know, I know, that must be the most dualistic thing I've ever said... but until someone convinces me that we should either have a purely Truthful Christianity or absolutely no Christianity at all, (and even if only a few people can see a totally Truthful Christianity and the rest of the world cannot, that doesn't rule it out, after all Copernicus was one of a very small handful of people that could see a Sun centered Solar System), I'm not convinced of either argument. To write off Christianity you need to write off the pure nature of it.
I know the Church is completely broken as it stands right now, and I have a feeling Rick knows that too, but are you willing to argue that Christianity, in its pure, Truthful form is also broken?
As for Rick, I would ask the opposite question, are you willing to argue that the Church is really the best way to get any benefit from any Truthful Christianity that exists given its horrendous track record of violence and misrepresentation of whatever Truth there is to be found in Christianity?
Again, I'm not trying to take a side in this debate, I'm just looking to reframe the debate in a more transparent way.
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