LOL! Okay, L56! I'm going first this time! Maybe that will help?
I still don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'll give it one more try. I'm saying that what Jesus taught, which is what Buddha taught, which is what all spiritual masters, known and unknown, taught and teach, and is basically the same, and is the same Truth, is separate and apart from the co-opting and bastardization of the messages by a politically motivated organization known as The Church. I am saying that by throwing out the Catholic Church, you lose nothing of the messages, and gain some fresh air. I definitely am not "lumping Christianity with The Church's failures," or with The Church at all. I'm saying The Church has nothing to do with the real practice of the teachings of Jesus, or as Gandhi put it: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
I think we are agreeing to agree, L56! I hope you agree!!
"What has Christianity got to do with the Catholic Church?!"
Nothing. Which is exactly my point to both of you.
Through your whole debate I've perceived Pete as seeing Christianity getting lumped with the Church's failures and I see Rick seeing the failing Church being held up by what's good about Christianity.
It's like you're looking at the same jigsaw puzzle from different sides of the table arguing that it's a different picture. The glass isn't half full or half empty, it just contains 50% water and 50% air. I know, I know, that must be the most dualistic thing I've ever said... but until someone convinces me that we should either have a purely Truthful Christianity or absolutely no Christianity at all, (and even if only a few people can see a totally Truthful Christianity and the rest of the world cannot, that doesn't rule it out, after all Copernicus was one of a very small handful of people that could see a Sun centered Solar System), I'm not convinced of either argument. To write off Christianity you need to write off the pure nature of it.
I know the Church is completely broken as it stands right now, and I have a feeling Rick knows that too, but are you willing to argue that Christianity, in its pure, Truthful form is also broken?
As for Rick, I would ask the opposite question, are you willing to argue that the Church is really the best way to get any benefit from any Truthful Christianity that exists given its horrendous track record of violence and misrepresentation of whatever Truth there is to be found in Christianity?
Again, I'm not trying to take a side in this debate, I'm just looking to reframe the debate in a more transparent way