LOFF56 & PL ON ALL THINGS BEING RELATIVE & GOD! OR NOT!!

Here's L56:

"For starters, I do hope that Obama turns out to be the Adult Supervision that we need. But realistically speaking I'm not convinced that he'll be more than just a little bit of that Adult Supervision. As you state, (correctly in my opinion), we need a lot. I'm just not convinced that he'll be able to provide all of what we need. There's a lot of Government disfunction that's built into the system and no matter what he does, he's just not going to be able to root it all out. But I'm hopeful that at least some things will improve.
Regarding relativity... again... You said so yourself that for Reaganomics to work, 'the private sector would have to be operating from their healthy, enlightened first nature.' Hypothetically, what if that were true? Wouldn't Reaganomics be correct then? By your own definition the success of Reaganomics is relative to the enlightened nature of the private sector. If the private sector were in fact enlightened in the manner which you speak, would you then consider Reaganomics to be Truth with a capital 'T'?
Clearly, the bulk of the private sector achieving this state of enlightenment is a far fetched prospect at this point. On a more practical level, I believe at one point you mentioned the likes of Bill Gates, who does in fact donate a lot of money to charity. For him, Reaganomics is a completely successful construct for the benefit of all of humanity. Let's cut taxes for Bill Gates, because he actually WILL use that money for good. So relatively speaking Reaganomics is effective... for him...
In the Bill Gates scenario, it's a truth with a lower case "t" because it only applies to him and his likes. For the vast majority of other wealthy private sector people the truth is just the opposite. I believe that you confuse Truth with a capital "T" with an overwhelming majority of one truth versus another truth. In this case let's arbitrarily say it's like 50 million versus one thousand. It's quite a lopsided victory for the truth against Reaganomics versus the truth of Reaganomics. But for Truth to possess a capital 'T', (by my definition), it has to possess complete, one hundred percent compliance.
I'm not about to make a similar defense of relativity out of all of the issues you stated, (though I probably could), cause it would just take up too much space, and I'd start to feel my soul deteriorate because my personal opinion sides with the "correct" side of the issues, obviously. But let me tackle one just to prove the point...
Genocide. Clearly, there was at least one person, Hitler, who decided that genocide had a benefit to the greater good of humanity. No matter what we do, we can't change the truth (with a lower case "t") that Hitler felt this way. We can all shout out for eternity that he was wrong... clearly... but for whatever reason it was his truth. Using the same logic that Truth with a capital "T" must possess complete 100 percent compliance we can't mathematically assess that genocide being wrong is a Truth with a capital "T". Despite the fact that it's probably 500 Billion to one in favor of that. It's still relative. It's very lopsided, but it's relative.
I do believe that the truths when stated in the quote, "We hold these truths to be self evident", is much better defined by the degree of lopsidedness in this truth v. truth battle. It will be self evident when one truth dominates another. I don't think the authors of the Declaration of Independence had in mind the truth that slavery was wrong when they wrote it. In fact many, if not all of them, had slaves at the time. Their truth was that slavery was just fine. By proxy of lopsided victory over time against slavery, they turned out to be wrong. But their Truth with a capital "T", if that's what they were espousing, turned out to be anything but definable, extremely fluid, and ultimately, relative.
Thank about it... 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,... Really? Except black people apparently. Self evident truth better be fluid and relative for all our sakes.
Relatively yours,
loff56"

PL:

Okay, here's the thing, L56 - if you are talking at the personal level only, then yes, truth, with a small "t" is relative as is reality, small "r." What I am saying on this blog is that while there are personal and relative truths and realities, which we may believe in and create on a day-to-day basis, there is also Truth and Reality that is absolute. The fact that our founding fathers understood the absolute Truth about humanity's inalienable rights, but couldn't themselves live up to it, yet, doesn't mean it was relative. That's why we kept struggling with slavery and its derivatives through the years, because there was an absolute Truth (oneness) driving us to end the enslavement of our fellow human beings. That Hitler thought his genocide was justified only means he thought it was, not that genocide's violation of the Reality of our oneness with other living beings was relative.

It's the age-old religious "mystery" I'm talking about here, L56 - how can we be doing "God's" will at all times ("Thy will be done"), yet still have free will at all times?
I've posted this a few times before, but here's how I visualize it: God's will is like a powerful river that we're swimmers in, and as such, we can choose to swim with the current or against the current. In either case, someone watching from the banks of the river would see that however we exercise our individual will, we are being taken downstream. In other words, going against the current or going with the flow will determine our relative experience of reality, but nonetheless, the absolute Reality is we're all heading in the same ultimate direction - back towards our oneness with All That Is.

Regarding Obama and his provision of adult supervision for the greedy-needy children in grown-ups' clothes who've wreaked havoc on our country, yes, I agree, it is a daunting task, but hopefully, other true adults will be inspired to join the president and stand up to the crooks and liars until they stand down.

Thanks, L56.

L56 FOLLOW-UP:

"AHA!! So it seems we're defining our positions very simply as the difference between Agnostic and Atheist. Agnostic in the sense that although you may or may not believe in an actual God, you do believe in an absolute will or Truth of some sort that guides us in a direction. And an Atheist in the sense that I believe that there is no entity, God-like or not, and that WE have absolute and total control of 100% of every outcome personally and more broadly based as humanity on the whole.
Your question: '...how can we be doing 'God's' will at all times ('Thy will be done'), yet still have free will at all times?'
My simple Atheist answer is: We Can't. It's one or the other. To me free will is completely free, 100%. If it's tempered by the will of a 'God' or a 'Truth' with a capital 'T' even in the smallest amount it's not 'free'. 'Free' is an absolute term. If something cost one penny, it's not free.
The advantage of my point of view is that your differing view of there being a capital 'T' Truth is 100% compatible with my view of there not being. Because I believe every single person has their own lower case 't' truth which is of equal validity to my truth and of everybody else's truth.
The disadvantage to your belief is that my very rejection of a capital 'T' Truth is completely in conflict with the very capital 'T' Truth that you believe in. According to your absolute Truth, I'm one of those Salmon that keeps swimming aimlessly up stream.
Well, I don't feel like a Salmon. But in the end it's no skin off either of our backs. You can continue to think I'm a Salmon, and I can continue to think that it's totally fine that you think I'm a Salmon."

PL:

You reveal something about where you're coming from, L56, when you talk about the "advantage" of your "point of view" versus the "disadvantage" of what you perceive to be my "belief."

Points of view and beliefs are created by our egos to seek advantages and manage our lives when problems feel too difficult to resolve through ordinary intellectual efforts, especially in childhood. From a place of egolessness, however, one can attain access to the Truth, as I've said before and in so doing attracted some ire. Nonetheless, we have all had the experience, even if just for moments, when we transcend our egos, our intellect, even our bodies to a certain extent, and suddenly just know something to be True.

My efforts to evolve my consciousness in this lifetime have taken me to a place where eliminating beliefs and opinions in myself is the goal, so that I may seek and connect to what is actually True. It is surely a process that I will be in for the rest of this lifetime, and one that at times feels to have advantages or disadvantages. Even so, as I discover more Truth, rest assured sure that I will reveal it!

Oh... and the reason that it seems contradictory to you that one can be taken by the current of God's will while simultaneously having personal free will is because you are caught up in thinking dualistically, the only way in which the ego can think.

Thanks again, L56!

2 comments:

loff56 said...

AHA!!

So it seems we're defining our positions very simply as the difference between Agnostic and Atheist. Agnostic in the sense that although you may or may not believe in an actual God, you do believe in an absolute will or Truth of some sort that guides us in a direction. And an Atheist in the sense that I believe that there is no entity, God-like or not, and that WE have absolute and total control of 100% of every outcome personally and more broadly based as humanity on the whole.

Your question: "...how can we be doing "God's" will at all times ("Thy will be done"), yet still have free will at all times?"

My simple Atheist answer is: We Can't. It's one or the other. To me free will is completely free, 100%. If it's tempered by the will of a "God" or a "Truth" with a capital "T" even in the smallest amount it's not "free". "Free" is an absolute term. If something cost one penny, it's not free.

The advantage of my point of view is that your differing view of there being a capital "T" Truth is 100% compatible with my view of there not being. Because I believe every single person has their own lower case "t" truth which is of equal validity to my truth and of everybody else's truth.

The disadvantage to your belief is that my very rejection of a capital "T" Truth is completely in conflict with the very capital "T" Truth that you believe in. According to your absolute Truth, I'm one of those Salmon that keeps swimming aimlessly up stream.

Well, I don't feel like a Salmon. But in the end it's no skin off either of our backs. You can continue to think I'm a Salmon, and I can continue to think that it's totally fine that you think I'm a Salmon.

:-p

loff56 said...

Wow,
I'm a little befuddled, (and impressed I might add), that you managed to turn this: "I believe every single person has their own lower case "t" truth which is of equal validity to my truth and of everybody else's truth." around into meaning I think with my ego.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'd have to argue that thinking that everyone else is on equal footing with myself is exactly the opposite of thinking with an ego.

If you ask me, believing that one knows what "God's" will is (or at least purports to be riding the river in the right direction as it were) is not only thinking with an ego, but is delusional in any assessment that would make them believe that the Truth with a capital "T" that they seek differs in any basic way from any traditional Religion with a capital "R".

Furthermore, to bestow an absolute quality to the Truth that you personally seek, is to transfer your personal responsibility to an entity that is larger than yourself (that you created). That's what you do when you "eliminate beliefs and opinions in myself". In doing so, you also eliminate personal responsibility.

And it's not that I don't seek truth. I do. I seek my own personal truth with a lower case "t", because that's what I feel comfortable being responsible for.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Is the Church of FPL taking new members at this time?

 

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